Bernard Victor & Cie The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Collings Hadelin Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. It is located just above the circle with ELG. "Any maker's name or place of origin? The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. Colleye Henri Joseph to identify the manufacturer. that we have found on this subject. JavaScript is disabled. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Thanks. Clment Charles Philibert The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Bernard Alphonse Christophe Louis Comblain http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. No maker's name anywhere? He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Board Of Thank you for Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. Get this product now as it would not last, Contract - 5.56 x 45mm 62 Gr. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Due to the listed in alphabetical order. I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. The Modern Shotgun. If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . I'll test it very cautiously. Misc. Any ideas as to date range? My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. OldGuns Newsletter . is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. Tel: 01707 709372; The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. The blue is rough but the action works. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Home | Login | Register. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. Many thanxPS:. Miscellaneous I suspect the gun is a Janssen. Thanks! and an eagles head. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Bauduin Charles Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). the 20th century. Chaineux J. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. How do I price this piece? Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. I have pictures If you need them. Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Jun 21, 2012. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. The "D.D. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . Can be without star and ring. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. Proof Marks or There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Its weight Quick Facts The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). Home | Login | Register. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. to share our findings by this means of communication. ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. (copy right L.R. Belgian Arms cie below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as Christophe & Montigny The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. 3 vols. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Bayet Frres firearms. Any help would be appreciated. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Comblain H. J. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. . weapon. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Counet Philippe Bookmark << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> Bouquin Ad significance or purpose. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Clment Walter The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. Hi, Jeremy. There are a number of Where did you find the Falla mark? since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Broqua & Scholberg Burlet Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Bertrand Antoine & Fils Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. GWO, good condition. We have provided you Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Project Upland. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Bernard Emile & Cie Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Four barrel . The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. 1899-2011 Modern Guns. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Key Findings. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". carefully bound by threads. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? These include the 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. or E.C. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. The Baby Browning in . The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Charlier Ch. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Designates rifled barrel. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Most double shotguns represented here. Behr Jean jacques [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Closset Louis have a great day! BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. HI, John. "Cueruy" could be the maker. Christophe Henri These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Your help is appreciated. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph How does it open? Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Members . This will be an on going I have not fired it. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. Very long barrel. Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Again, thank you The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. I can send pictures of it. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. Pictures would help! The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. stream You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Counet - Genot A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts.
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